Faith, Beer, and Other Things That Interest Geoff

I disagree. If Jews are going to convert, they will. Nothing is going to be gained by pushing too intensely; moreover I think it has an opposite effect. Karol Woytyla grew up watching religous persecution at its worse and it made a profound effect on him. When there was all the controversy surrounding The Passion and various groups were pushing for the Pope to say something, he didn't. So to imply that he was too politically correct or didn't like the gospel is erroneous. God forbid religions coexist in peace. If one can learn one thing from history it is that aggressive proslytezation can cause many problems. Chris J.
 

If the pope told Jewish people that they can get into heaven fine without Jesus, he did them a great disservice. Plus, we would have denied the truths of Scripture. This isn't about using wisdom about when to talk to someone or when not to. And no one is advocating the slitting of throats of those who don't convert, etc. This is about denying the gospel itself. The Roman Catholic Church, historically, has compromised the gospel by saying you need faith and works in order to get into heaven. But at least they said you need faith. In recent years, the Roman Church has started to say that non-Christians may not need faith. This is horrible and inconsistent with their own historic teachings.

Jesus himself said the following: Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to turn a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughterinlaw against her motherinlaw– a man's enemies will be the members of his own household.

A forthright proclamation of the gospel will bring division and will rock the boat. If this is not happening, then you can pretty much guarantee the gospel isn't being forthrightly preached.
 

I guess that's why I am Catholic, besides the fact I was brought up that way. True, I may not agree with all Church teachings, but I do agree with one about faith and good works. I just find it illogical to say I can believe in Jesus, kill people and get into heaven. Believe in Jesus, hate others and it's OK. If I am going to burn in Hell for that belief than I guess that's what'll happen. But I don't think that's the case. As for the non-Christians being saved, yeah, that's vatican 2, and may be suspect. But I am not as comfortable as you are in assuming my theological ideas are 100% correct. As for your original point, I think John Paul 2's work in reconciliation with others should not be seen as a negative thing. Chris J.
 

His work towards reconciliation has been good. But this is different. He wouldn't try to heal the rift between Protestants or Orthodoxy by denying the office of the papacy. I don't think he did this in this case.

As to the doctrine of justification by faith alone, this is indeed the Biblical doctrine. The difference would be that Roman Catholicism believes faith + works = salvation. The Reformers believed that faith = works + salvation. That is a big difference. A person with genuine belief will have works. But those works will always be tainted with sin. As Isaiah said, "all our righteiousness is like filthy rags." And the original Hebrew means "used menstral cloths." The general point is that there is nothing to add to the cross and the finished work of Jesus. Because if I have to rely on reaching a certain threshhold of being good enough, I'm in a huge amount of trouble.

Now, the common argument is that "well, you can do whatever you want. Sin as much as you want and still get to go to heaven." Paul who laid the doctrine of justication in Romans 3-5 anticipated this objection in Romans 6. If he wasn't teaching the doctrine known as "sola fide" or "faith alone" in the previous chapters, that anticipated objection would make no sense. But if you see no evidence of genuine faith, you can safely assume they have no genuine faith.

I wouldn't say that all of theological views are 100% correct. But I would say "go to Scripture." You don't have to take my word for it. And the main doctrines are very clear.
 

faith=works+salvation is illogical;you can't assume a person's character just because they claim to have "genuine belief"...rot in purgatory, why don't you (that's a joke, ha-ha)
 

Not following this last comment. Only God is the judge of someone in the end. But there is fruit to look at. I'm not sure how the doctrine that faith in Jesus is the only means of salvation and that faith will produce good works in the believer is illogical. Feel free to elaborate.
 

"faith will produce good works in the believer"..what I mean is that just because someone has faith doesn't mean they will produce good works. They may often go hand in hand, but not automatically. You are presupposing that happens but I don't think it does and I don't think one can prove that. That presupposition is what I find illogical.
 

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Jesus said "a good tree will produce good fruit." I'm not saying this because it is necessitated by logic, but because it is consistently taught in Scripture.